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Who doesn’t want to know what women want, right? Well, in this interview with Hendrika Freud, we begin to get the idea that women often prefer not to know. As I sit in my private practice, many of my female patients put on a good smoke and mirror show, cloaking desires behind reaction formations, saying they are not angry when indeed they are, and feeling guilty when they venture to articulate what they prefer in bed, for breakfast, or as payment for services rendered. Indeed, when a woman says “no” she does often mean “yes.” In her book Electra vs Oedipus: The Drama of the Mother-Daughter Relationship (Routledge, 2010), Freud explores why being affirmative, embracing one’s desires, can be so vexatious for those deemed female.
Finding a way to separate from the one whose gender identity we share, our mother, is a very complicated affair. According to Freud, a mother’s unconscious fantasies regarding her daughter are transmitted at a very young age. If a mother is narcissistically vulnerable, she is more prone to use her daughter as an extension of herself and so to be threatened by her daughter’s expressions of difference. If you have seen Darren Aronofsky’s “Black Swan,” you have witnessed an excellent depiction of how destructive such a set up is for the daughter, leading at its most extreme to florid psychosis.
So what do women want? According to Hendrika Freud, “they want a woman with a penis.”
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{ 24 comments… read them below or add one }
Ahhh … I just reviewed it again, around 10:30, in the context of what women want and motherhood and so on, the author states that women want a woman with a penis … I take it to mean that mothers want a daughter with a penis.
Yes … I think she does … that is what I took from it and I have listened to this podcast several times over just because it is just such a strange theory. If I took it wrong, well, perhaps its my fault, but, it is certainly not from a lack of trying to understand the issue.
It was awhile ago that this interview was completed but, if I recall at all close to correctly, Hendrika Freud does not suggest that a mother wants a daughter with a penis but rather suggests that what adult women want in a partner for love is, often enough, a woman with a penis. Does H. Freud actually say, in this interview, that women want their daughters to have penises?
I listened to the podcast when it first came out, and as a fan of psychology (more particularly Jung, but that is besides the point) I had to say I thought that, while the conversation was strange to say the least, it just didn’t sound correct. I don’t know too many women who want their daughter with a penis (in fact I spoke with a friend of mine about the theory and she laughed at me that she wishes her daughter had a penis). I listened to the podcast over and over again and now after listening to it for about sixth time I just have to conclude that the author and interviewer are wrong.
I am sure that some women do wish their daughter was a son and perhaps even in some warped mind, the mother does want a daughter with a penis, but, I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that the normal mother of a daughter wants their daughter to have a penis. The interview, and more particularly the underlying theory it is predicated on is just wrong. The majority of women don’t think the way the interview states. I am a practicing family law attorney and know many women in their most vulnerable of times; the theory is bunk and just the fact that it is so seriously discussed makes me think of the flatlander society in some sense – just because a person or even a group of people strongly and vociferously believe in something does not make it true. If the evidence for the theory has not anecdotally surfaced in the ten plus years and close to thousand custody and related cases that I have personally litigated as well as the several hundred expert depositions, voir dires and cross examinations, when is it going to surface? Never have I heard a psychologist or psychiatrist ever once opine that women want their daughter to have a penis and that this is the source of some sort of animosity or gulf between them and their daughter. In fact, I even brought up the interview to a psychologist I consult with from time to time who also is a professor of psychology and whom I am friendly with. He noted there is little credible evidence to support the theory.
As I noted, most women are completely content with their daughter being a daughter, sans penis. Sure, you can say that on a certain subconscious level they really want it, but, in many instances that is pure conjecture. Many women do not experience trauma, discontent or exhibit any evidence of the same as a result of their daughters not being a boy or having a penis or anything of the like. If the author and interviewer were going to argue that, I would say that there seems to be a lack of credible evidence to support this. Being a practicing psychoanalysts and have rather impressive academic credentials does not permit you to make up such theories out of whole cloth, no matter how true you believe it is. I fail to see the evidence that this phenomena is widespread, normal or even semi-normal.
This is a metaphor right? I’d like a man who wore wings. That’d make him feminine enough and still have the penis. Joking aside, I think that a lot of this sort of thought is (or will soon be) very dated as newer generations become increasingly as ease with variant forms of sexuality. The craving for parental love and affection-be it masculine or feminine/maternal or paternal-never goes away, for as long as it remains unfulfilled and/or unrecognized. And to the above post, I think men can be equally juvenile – to not want to give back, with a lot of “little boy’s wishes.” both sexes need to be compassionate towards both sexes. But perhaps I have PhD envy.
What are the dynamics of a mother and daughter relationship when the roles are reversed. When the
mother is the object of jealousy and the daughter has narcissistic traits. How can a mother connect successfully with the daughter without being scapegoated when the daughter is the aggressor and the mother tries to remain accepting and passive.
I loved this interview – the ideas, your interplay. Off to buy the book.
Fabulous! I really enjoyed the interview and look forward to more. Thank you for making the book and ideas come alive through your thoughtful and informed conversation with Dr. Freud.
A fascinating discussion of the female psyche – what women want, fear, desire, and perhaps most importantly, what we don’t want to know. Tracy, you are a natural interviewer, drawing gems of wisdom from Hendrika Freud. Thank you for this.
Tracy Morgan and Hendrika Freud take obvious delight in each others’ ideas and in rendering, no matter how stark, the complex and knotty problem of mother daughter symbiosis. Thank you, it was a pleasure to listen to.
Although I don’t necessarily agree with everything the author is suggesting, I found the discussion thought-provoking and stimulating. I have to say, I do like this format and will certainly listen to ones coming up. Tracy, I’m very impressed with your interview style and sense. You did a wonderful job. I hope you’re happy with the results of your first podcast.
Interesting, funny, and I will work it into my psych classes. Glad I found this. I have always had a penis so its nice to hear talk about the struggles of those without. Have you read Goldwater’s paper on What Men Want?/Fear? (Goldwater, E. (1989). What Do Men Want?*. Modern Psychoanalysis, 14:75-87; Goldwater, E. (1998). What Do Men Fear?. Mod. Psychoanal., 23:211-224)
How do you reconcile questions in this interview from a drive perspective? Dr. H. Freud certainly sees personality from a more socially influenced perspective closer to that of Klein, Kohut and Erikson.
What a fine job on an ever-interesting topic. Thoughtful and fun. Looking forward to the next chapter.
I thoroughly enjoyed this interview – what a great idea and wonderful format!
Great job Tracy! you are fantastic on the podcast… The craving for a loving mother…great topic!
Congratulations! Wonderful series. Very stimulative and thought provoking interview. Loved it. Looking forward for the rest.
Well done Tracy! This intriguing interview was rich with insights. Wonderful to listen to you both. It left me wanting & desiring, more. Dank u wel.
The comments are largely so very loving and full of enthusiasm, and by such wonderful female analysts as well. As the host, I am certainly encouraged as we forge ahead on NBiP. (stay tuned for Dr. Irwin Hirsch around the 18th of March) Yet I wonder if I should ask if there is something about this interview that is silencing men from adding their voices to the mix? Well, I am asking and want to welcome the hombres to join in. As Dr. Freud says, mothers and daughters need the help of the father to, at some level, make it out intact!
.It is exciting to hear that psychoanalysis has a voice
This was a totally engaging interview from beginning to end. The format is lively and compelling, and it is refreshing to hear psychoanalysts speak about complex issues in language that all can understand . Many thanks to Dr. Hendrika Freud and Tracy D. Morgan!
What a wonderful inauguration to this important series on new books in psychoanalysis. I’ll be looking forward with great interest to all subsequent interviews. Thank you for providing a forum for psychoanalytic ideas that can be heard by everyone.
A fascinating interview. I loved listening to these two brilliant women exploring the secret life of desire.
A thoughtful, provocative and fun interview. Can’t wait for the next one.
I’m a woman. A psychoanalyst. The last thing I’d want as a partner is a woman, with a penis or without. Women drive me crazy when they aren’t just annoying. Most of what is called “women’s rights” turns out to be, in fact, little girl’s wishes, to take and not have to give back.